trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 9, 2007 21:59:00 GMT -5
Sh I loved this issue. Its really getting good. The fact that you want us all to be up in arms over Andrew and the "young girls" is just ridiculous for sooooo many reasons. Except, I don't. I really don't care what you think about it. I don't really care about those that are on Tony's side about the SHRA either. I think it's a really stupid act that has gone way too far (I'm looking at you Maria Hill), but I don't really care if they're for it. Though, at least in that case, I can see why it could be a good thing. It just went way too far. This is similar. I don't care if you don't care. The history is there in past seasons. Unfortunately, like the part where slayers don't use modern tech to fight evil, it's getting ignored. I already offered up some examples of how it could be retconned away, albeit somewhat jokingly. Or make him really sorry. But, given his appearance in S5 of Angel, that isn't the case. He shouldn't, for example, still be either a liar or delusional. "We—we saved the world together. I mean, Buffy helped, but... it was mostly us. " - Andrew (Damage) Yes, he's lying about the past. Claiming credit for actions that were not his. He was at best, side help. This is not growth. He has not matured to a point where I see him as a decent person. Same way I don't particularly feel that the Thunderbolts (most of the modern team at this point) are decent people, even if they are the "good guys." Sorry Venom, but you having a shiny badge doesn't mean that you're forgiven for the crap you've pulled. And it isn't totally that he's around girls, but that the situation is supposed to be funny. Same reason why I don't think that a comic should set up a joke about Tony and Cap where Cap is the one that the joke is on. Tony didn't want it to happen, but he is ultimately at least partly responsible. He doesn't get to do it anymore because of the things he's done. Same thing with Reed Richards and Goliath. He's extremely sorry for it, but he shouldn't be making jokes about it. I don't see them making a police brutality joke about it after all. |
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 9, 2007 22:04:59 GMT -5
You are totally reading into this way too much. Or maybe, the writers aren't paying enough attention. From Whedon's recent newsarama interview, he is pretty big on continuity. If that's his thing, shouldn't his creations be held to the same standard if the comic is supposed to continue the series as opposed to being an alternate universe? If each episode is fairly self contained, a la The Simpsons, then it really doesn't matter what any of them do. But, if their past actions are supposed to matter, then they should apply to everyone. They can change, ie Faith going to jail. However, Andrew's "change" doesn't establish that he is really any better. As seen in what he says about the last days of Sunnydale and his role in S5 of Angel. |
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Post by FM on May 9, 2007 23:21:11 GMT -5
This is hilarious. You are totally the one ignoring continuity. Andrews progress is all right there.
And to say you dont care what we think and then spend 57 years replying to every sentence is silly. Of course, I'm sure you will now write 12 paragraphs on how you didnt actually spend 57 years replying. And you will find some way to incorporate Captain America and Iron Man in there even though theres really no connection AT ALL and their presence in this discussion makes no sense.
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 9, 2007 23:29:31 GMT -5
This is hilarious. You are totally the one ignoring continuity. Andrews progress is all right there. Like the part where he lies? Or is under the delusion that he was "mostly" the one that saved the world? Funny how that never gets addressed. It's after Season 7 of BTVS, so any supposed character development should have already happened already. Actually, I type fairly quickly. And it's called analogy. Both commit acts, though perhaps not altogether intentional, where it isn't funny to joke about them. Yeah, the situations are completely dissimilar.  |
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Post by willowswarlok on May 10, 2007 5:48:43 GMT -5
I think this has gone way overboard. every character has done something evil at one time or another. Willow flayed someone alive and nearly destroyed the world, yet she is around living people all the time. Sure she was under the influence, but it was still her.
Just let it go
Wayne
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Post by wkdwillow on May 10, 2007 8:55:50 GMT -5
I'm hoping that Andrew dies in the middle of this mess. He can't offer anything to this for now. Plus, I think hes like another xander.... apart from Xander is WAY better  |
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Post by stakey on May 10, 2007 9:14:56 GMT -5
The best bit of season 8 so far for me has got to be....
fe, fi, fo...
!!fucking fum!!
*SQUISH*
so funny.
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 10, 2007 9:23:44 GMT -5
I think this has gone way overboard. every character has done something evil at one time or another. Willow flayed someone alive and nearly destroyed the world, yet she is around living people all the time. The show shows her "therapy." Or at least enough to show that she is getting help. The show shows Andrew lying. Which shows what exactly? Technically, Warren probably should have died anyway. There are logistical problems to trying to bring him in and he knew too much anyway. Willow's method of getting to him on the other hand, was the problem. And again, the show clearly shows evidence of her change. Same thing for Faith. Damage shows that Andrew changed by being a liar? Yeah, that's real good. I was just responding to people that replied. Maybe they should let it go too. |
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Post by henz on May 10, 2007 15:00:46 GMT -5
lol @ FM and Trejo arguing. I've done this with both of you somewhen and it's mighty fun.
Andrew's a storyteller, plain and simple. That wont simply go away. His growth was in him actually using it to good effect when it was needed (him comforting xander in "chosen"). It would be much worse in terms of character development to have him just be someone else. People don't change like that, and if they do you wouldn't notice in a mere couple of years.
lol @ FM and Trejo arguing. I've done this with both of you somewhen and it's mighty fun.
Andrew's a storyteller, plain and simple. That wont simply go away. His growth was in him actually using it to good effect when it was needed (him comforting xander in "chosen"). It would be much worse in terms of character development to have him just be someone else. People don't change like that, and if they do you wouldn't notice in a mere couple of years.
I agree at times it seems he got off a little too easily, but you can see his repentance - plain as day - in "Storyteller", when he faces his actions and is sorry. It seems he lacks the emotional maturity to dwell on it (he always seemed a small boy to me) but it doesn't mean he wasn't repentant.
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Post by buffyswatcher on May 10, 2007 20:21:45 GMT -5
Andrew's continuity = comic relief from day 1. There's not much more to him than that.
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 10, 2007 22:01:33 GMT -5
lol @ FM and Trejo arguing. I've done this with both of you somewhen and it's mighty fun. Andrew's a storyteller, plain and simple. That wont simply go away. His growth was in him actually using it to good effect when it was needed (him comforting xander in "chosen"). It would be much worse in terms of character development to have him just be someone else. People don't change like that, and if they do you wouldn't notice in a mere couple of years. So he's delusional or a liar? Great. Yup, that really convinces me. Glad to know what people think growth and repentance is. Yeah I know what you mean. I totally see his repentance when he lies to Angel and Co. in Damage. He grew though in Storyteller, which you know, took place later than Damage. Oh wait. |
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 10, 2007 22:03:00 GMT -5
Andrew's continuity = comic relief from day 1. There's not much more to him than that. Like his idea to make Buffy a "willing sex bunny" through hypnotism? Yeah, I find unconsensual sex real amusing. Great comic relief. |
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Post by BillyBudd on May 11, 2007 8:59:40 GMT -5
So you're probably not a big fan of Borat...
You're basically saying that Joss has a social responsibility to not portray Andrew in certain situations given the character's history. Obviously, Joss doesn't feel that way. Or perhaps he does, but you're reading the character incorrectly. Joss is the only one who knows what Andrew thinks and feels. Andrew is his creation. Of course, it's entirely possible that Joss has failed to effectively demonstrate the character's development.
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trejo
Victim
Where angels fear to tread.
Posts: 51
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Post by trejo on May 11, 2007 9:31:58 GMT -5
So you're probably not a big fan of Borat... Never seen it. Though from what I've seen in clips and commericals, it seems rather satirical in nature. So is that what you're suggesting BTVS is? They're his characters, he can portray them in any way he wishes. Of course if he for instance, kills of one character and then suddenly brings them back five minutes later with no explanation then it weakens the story. It doesn't matter if they're his characters or not. Exactly, so that's why I go to the episodes to get exactly what his state is. Essentially his last major appearance in the show(s) was in Damage. Then a bit in The Girl in Question. From that, his character is established unless something major occurred in the year between 7 and "8." It's why I can point out Andrew's obvious lie thats serves no great purpose from his Angel appearance and see that he hasn't grown as a person. Joss Whedon is big on continuity. If the comics are not supposed to be a continuation then it doesn't matter, but if it is, it shouldn't ignore what happened. Then that's a failure in creating a coherent story. A year forward can be used to great effect, like in BSG. However, there has to be some basis for what happened to change the characters. Andrew however, seems no different from his appearance at the end of the shows. |
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Post by FM on May 11, 2007 9:48:51 GMT -5
Of course, it's entirely possible that Joss has failed to effectively demonstrate the character's development. I dont think thats the case since 99.99% of fans seem to see it just fine. This discussion is mildly disturbing (and majorly hilarious). Its one thing to have strong feelings about something but this guy is totally taking this Andrew thing way too far and way too seriously. Anyone who would hear Andrew take credit for saving the world and not only take it seriously but get so offended by it has problems. MAJOR problems. |
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Post by slayer489 on May 11, 2007 10:10:17 GMT -5
I'm really annoyed at the moment. My comic shop sold out of Issue #3 within 3 days when I went to look on the Saturday after they came out and they don't know when they will be getting more in (the next delivery is Wednesday but they don't know if Issue #3 will be in that delivery) , although they should eventually, but I'm scared that it will be the second printing and I really don't want a seconding printing cover. My Issue #1 was the second printing but that couldn't be helped because I left it a while, but I want the rest to look the same, I don't want a mixture of first and second printings! And on top of all that, I went onto Wikipedia and I think I have found out who Amy's 'boyfriend' is!  I didn't want any spoilers! I have been avoiding this thread for SO long for all of the hard work to be ruined. Sorry but I had to let it out. |
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Post by BillyBudd on May 11, 2007 10:51:41 GMT -5
trejo...
I'm not going to go back and rewatch all of the episodes involving Andrew for the sake of a tedious debate, but the reality is that your argument is not as unassailable as you appear to believe. A case can be made that Andrew has, in fact, made progress in terms of moral character, but you want to use a line here or a line there to try negate any supporting evidence. Clearly, Andrew is no paragon of virtue, but that doesn't mean he hasn't made progress. The issue isn't black and white. You've made some valid points, but so have other people.
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Post by Jinxieman on May 11, 2007 11:02:11 GMT -5
This has been one of the most amusing threads to read...EVER! Thanks Trejo, for your continued reiteration of the same point and your unwavering disgust of Andrew. Good time! |
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Post by henz on May 11, 2007 12:14:35 GMT -5
You should check out the thread me and Trejo debated in for a good week or so. I let it continue for ages til I proved him wrong. Never got a reply again.
Trejo, I don't get this argument. You clearly don't like Andrew's storytelling character trait. His growth is in him not using it to cover for his mistakes and even using it for comfort. I'd like to hear what you think growth and repentance in Andrew's case would be. It appears to me that you just don't like the character.
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Post by FM on May 11, 2007 13:09:28 GMT -5
Speaking of Andrew...I REALLY loved his character on the show but I'm worried they wont be able to get the same feel from him in comic form. Sooo much of what made him great was the little touches Tom Lenk added. The lines are still great in the comic but its just not the same without Tom Lenk and his adorable little additions. I dont feel the same way about Willow, Xander, Buffy, etc. I think they are easier to capture in comic form. It also helps that the artist has them down pat and the likenesses are great and the way he draws their expressions helps too.
I keep re-reading the comic and they just get better and better. I am able to appreciate the first issue so much more now that we've got 2 more. Every time they show or mention a new character I have a huge nerdgasm. We've spent the last 4 years wondering what these characters were up to and now we know. Definitely the best comic ever.
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I didn't want any spoilers! I have been avoiding this thread for SO long for all of the hard work to be ruined. 
