Worried about Dark Willow Figure

[rileyfan]

While Vampire Willow would have been my first choice I was still
happy when I heard about the Dark Willow figure being available from MAC &
cinequest for $15.95.

I think the Vampire Willow figure is much better looking then Dark Willow,
which I think is kinda dull and not as dramatic as it should be. I would still buy it.

Having said all that I'm still worried about the figure actually being made. I still don't think it's a sure thing.

Cinequest is taking orders for the figures, and more importantly they are charging
buyers for the figure right now! This, to me, means they are trying to raise
the money to begin production of the figure.

I would like to examine what website states to explain my worry:

"This is a preorder item and is expected to ship the first week of December.
Your credit card will be charged immediately as this is the only way to ensure
that your figure is guaranteed once it's received from the factory."

There is no firm ship date just "expected to ship" which is want we've been hearing from MAC for over a year now.

With an estimated 4-6 weeks transit time by boat from China the figures would have to
be made and ready to ship from the Factory by Early to Mid Oct.

(my company makes hand tools in China and
this is the standard length of time, the hands tools are complex with many small moving parts so
the production time has to be longer than an action figure.
I may be wrong here but the ship dates do sound ok to me)


"Your credit card will be charged immediately"

This is actually against the Law in the USA
30 day presale shipping is covered in

Federal Trade Commission’s
MAIL OR TELEPHONE ORDER MERCHANDISE RULE
PART 435 -- MAIL OR TELEPHONE ORDER MERCHANDISE RULE
Sec. 435.1

XFilesFaN had posted that link and I took the time to read it.
I think Cinquest should read it too.

I want to say that I really want all the figures but this all still seems wishy washy to me.
I would feel a little better if MAC actually announced any of the figure plans on their website, it would
make it all a little more legit, (I know they no longer have anyones trust but it would help)

They could be holding off making the announcement so legally they don't get screwed if the figures are again cancelled.
They could leave all those companies twisting in the wind without a second thought, they did it to us on July 3 and
I think they would have no problem doing it to them.

I hope I'm wrong but I just can't help worrying.
Can someone reassure me?

[kakistos]

I'd feel better too if MAC would just update their website. I want to order the figure from them anyways.

But I get the feeling that cinequest really wants to produce the figure. Just from the emails from Mark Del Vecchio, he seems to be a genuine fan of the show and the figures, and I don't think he'd try and mislead us. Plus, didn't he go to MAC wanting to get that Torso Dru ornament made?

MAC, however, I still don't have faith in. They get points back for talking to retailers to get the figures made, and for making the statues, but they still need to give us an actual figure or statue before I can trust them again.

I don't know if any of that was reassuring, but I feel better about the situation now that cinequest is involved, and it's not just MAC who's making the calls.

[CMK1887]

I am not worried about the Dark Witch Willow at all.

I believe that both Cinequest.com and MAC are serious about making this figure, and I still believe that they will give us our Willow figures back.

Even though MAC hasn't updated their site, we have to consider that they just got back from SDCC and they may have some more important stuff to do than "reassuring" us that the figures will be made.

I know they have screwed us in the past (it's cool that you remebered it was July 3), but we should learn to trust them again. They've given us Series 1-4, and I think they'll pull through this time.

-CMK

[rileyfan]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.
They did make me feel better.

I believe 100% that cinequest wants to sell the figures, but it is still MAC that actually makes them and that's why I'm worried.

It seems like cinequest is now raising the funds to actually pay MAC to have the figures made, (I don't think the CQ can legally directly produce the figures since it's MAC that holds the license, it will be MACs people that actually make them) MAC is just supplying Cinequest with the figures.

I also want to order them directly from MAC since they know they cannot legally charge my card until the items ships.

I think cinequest may get in trouble for that because the law doesn't allow that.

I just hope they get made, even if it is just "made to order" as their statement seems to indicate:

"Your credit card will be charged immediately as this is the only way to ensure
that your figure is guaranteed once it's received from the factory."

This seems to me like they'll only actually sell what people prepay for and MAC will be selling the rest.

Also, I could never forget that it was July 3, they posted that message at 5:06pm right before a 3 day weekend, that was nuts!!!!

Thanks again, I will now prodably just check the MAC site once a week and wait for the update. Won't drive myself nuts this way!!!

[CMK1887]

Glad to help out!

-CMK

[DanMan]

Sounds like online ordering is a loophole in the telephone/mail ordering merchandise law. Really though, I say we all show our support by ordering. We're fully aware the figures won't be ready for a good while, so there's no deception and if they don't get made (God forbid) for some reason, teh money will be refunded.

[rileyfan]

DanMan said:

Sounds like online ordering is a loophole in the telephone/mail ordering merchandise law. Really though, I say we all show our support by ordering. We're fully aware the figures won't be ready for a good while, so there's no deception and if they don't get made (God forbid) for some reason, teh money will be refunded.

Hi,

Actually the rules covers online orders too.

It states:
"What Does the Rule Cover?
It applies to most goods a customer orders from the seller by mail, telephone, fax, or on the Internet.

It does not matter how the merchandise is advertised, how the customer pays, or who initiates the contact."

It's the Government rule and they always get everyone.
I don't think it matters that we're aware since the 30 day presale policy is the law.

You can check it out here:

www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.htm

[DanMan]

What is the Mail or Telephone Order Rule?
The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time.

Just checked it out and that's what it says. The 30 days is only if no specific time frame is given...then 30 days is assumed. Since the know what production time will be and say it's going to come out in December that's fine. I knew this 30 day thing was weird...people who order comics or other merchandise from Diamond distributors do so months in advance...so it's legal if they have a shipping date and reasonably think they can make it.

[rileyfan]

DanMan said:

Just checked it out and that's what it says. The 30 days is only if no specific time frame is given...then 30 days is assumed. Since the know what production time will be and say it's going to come out in December that's fine. I knew this 30 day thing was weird...people who order comics or other merchandise from Diamond distributors do so months in advance...so it's legal if they have a shipping date and reasonably think they can make it.

Hi,

I think that means you cannot sell something that far in advance AND accept payment in full at the same time..

ebay has a 30 day presale policy which I think is there to comply with this ruling.

I understand regarding the Diamond thing but the point here is that Diamond does not charge you in fulll at the time you preorder.

The ruling covers "completed" orders which means when the customer pays for it the 30 day shipping ruling applies.

This does not cover reserve or not yet paid orders.
This was my initial point.

Cinequest is taking money for the figures which means these are completed orders and the ruling would apply.

When you preorder from other places it is always noted in almost the same type of wording "you card wil not be charged until the order ships"

Almost all compnaies have that same legal wording because of this 30 day ruling. You see that wording on amazon, barnes&noble and other online retailers when they take preorders for not yet released items.

I have never seen a company accept payment in full for an item that is not even made and expects to ship in 5 months.

The ruling also covers items that are not made when it states:

"We want to sell by mail or telephone a product that is not yet available. Does the Rule apply?

A: It depends. In an advisory opinion, the FTC told a publishing company that it could "dry-test" its merchandise as long as the following conditions were met:

In promoting the merchandise, the merchant can make no suggestion that the merchandise will be shipped or that customers expressing an interest in it will receive it.

In all promotional materials, the merchant must disclose all material aspects of the promotion, including the fact that the merchandise is only planned and may not be shipped.

If any part of the promotion is later dropped, the merchant must notify subscribers of the fact within a reasonable time after soliciting their subscriptions.

If, within a reasonable time after soliciting their subscriptions, the merchant has made no decision to ship the merchandise, it must notify subscribers of this fact and give them the opportunity to cancel and, where payment has been made, make a prompt refund.
The merchant can make no substitutions of any merchandise for that ordered.

If these conditions are not met, the Rule applies."

I believe this is the case.

I am contacting the FTC with my questions, and will of course leave out the details, I'm asking them a general question on this type of transaction and will wait to see what they say.

[angelus11783]

Hey just wondering why do you care so much about the preorder thing? I mean I have no problem with them taking payment in full.And I bet they did not know it is against the law and did not intentionally break the law. Though if for some reason the figure does not come out they will just refund the money. But you seem to be making a huge deal out this. I am just wondering why?

[Lior Knight]

I guess he’s just worried…’cause with their huge shipping rates it’s quite a big amount of money and if the company works illegally you might not get a refund, in case MAC might cancel this figure, again.

[JusticeDemon]

This ruling would apply if you placed a pre-order and WERE NOT TOLD you would be charged right away. If they have a disclaimer on their site TELLING you that you'll be charged, the item comes out in December, and you don't have to order under those circumstances if you don't want to..... then they're not violating any rules because they disclosed all of that information. Your order implies consent and acceptance of that particular arrangement. The FTC would not get involved. They would only bust in if Cinequest was taking preorders and charging immediately WITHOUT telling the customers.

[angelus11783]

Yeah I have to agree that sounds reasonable to me. Cause we know what we are agreeing to.

[rileyfan]

Lior said:

I guess he’s just worried…’cause with their huge shipping rates it’s quite a big amount of money and if the company works illegally you might not get a refund, in case MAC might cancel this figure, again.

Hi,

That's it exactly.
I want a few of the figures and I am worried about losing the money.

There is a time limit as to when you can complain about something, as more time passess you lose your rights to complain.

The comments by JusticeDemon are incorrect.
The ruling doesn't say anything about being told when we are charged, that's not the point.

It's the 30 day shipping rule from moment of vbeing charges, it has nothing to do with their stating the fact that they'll charge asap (one would hope that at the very least they would do that)

They also state that if you don't pay now you will not be guaranteed a figure, they make this ery clear in order to get you to order now.

Just because someone is upfront about something that may be illegal does not make it right. Just because a person consents to go along with something that is not right does not make it right.

I just wish MAC would make this all official and post it on their site. So far we don't even know if cinequest actually has the figure yet as MAC has not confirmed this.

[BtVSFigs Admin]

Rileyfan said:

Hi,

That's it exactly.
I want a few of the figures and I am worried about losing the money.

There is a time limit as to when you can complain about something, as more time passess you lose your rights to complain.

The comments by JusticeDemon are incorrect.
The ruling doesn't say anything about being told when we are charged, that's not the point.

It's the 30 day shipping rule from moment of vbeing charges, it has nothing to do with their stating the fact that they'll charge asap (one would hope that at the very least they would do that)

They also state that if you don't pay now you will not be guaranteed a figure, they make this ery clear in order to get you to order now.

Just because someone is upfront about something that may be illegal does not make it right. Just because a person consents to go along with something that is not right does not make it right.

I just wish MAC would make this all official and post it on their site. So far we don't even know if cinequest actually has the figure yet as MAC has not confirmed this.

I talked with Mark from Cinequest. You will 100% get a refund in the event that they are cancelled again, but the way they have worked it out with MAC, they don't forsee that happening with Dark Willow in the slightest bit. He didn't say, but they might take as many orders as they can and then only produce that amount. I'm not sure about that, but that could be the reason they are doing the charging once it's ordered.

JusticeDemon is right though, they're not doing anything illegal. They're not stealing your money or anything. The product is garunteed to be out and the only way your going to get it is to preorder it but the only way they can make them is with the money from the preorders, so the money has to come in first. That's just how this is working. It's this or no figures at all, so you just have to go with it.

[motownslayer]

Ok here is exactly what the FTC website says.

"Mail or Telephone Order Rule
By law, a company should ship your order within the time stated in its ads. If no time is promised, the company should ship your order within 30 days after receiving it.

If the company is unable to ship within the promised time, they must give you an “option notice.” This notice gives you the choice of agreeing to the delay or canceling your order and receiving a prompt refund.

There is one exception to the 30-day Rule: if a company doesn’t promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the company has 50 days to ship after receiving your order. "

I have found not rule with the FTC that outline prepayment of orders. I believe this is a consent issue. Cinequest is upfront with the fact they will be charging credit cards. If a purchaser decides they would rather not pay at this time they can wait for MAC to update their website.

Basically as it applies to the Dark Willow Figure it would mean that they would ship it within 30 days of receiving it in stock, which they have already stated they would do. I definitely understand why you are standoffish about ordering at this point. It isn't like we haven't been burned before. It is really a personal decision though. Completely legal for Cinequest to do.